Curse

noblepaladin · Jun 03, 2006, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Theoretically, you should always be equipped with at least minors. So a superior rune will give you +2 more than the "normal" (where normal is having a minor rune) at the cost of -75hp. A major would give you +1 over the "normal", at the cost of -35hp. The major runes would actually give you two extra attributes for -70hp, so you come out 5 hp ahead.

But what works best will depend on how you play. For example, if you are running a fire nuker for PvE, you would want level 16 fire, because you don't use any other spells.

However, on my tanking warrior, I have very high strength and tactics. I currently use one superior strength, and minor tactics and swordsmanship. However, it would be more beneficial on that build to use a major strength and major tactics. I use 12 strength, and 12 tactics, so I have my attribute distribution at 9+3 and 11+1. It would be cheaper to do 10+2 and 10+2, I would end up with a few extra attributes points and 5 extra hp. Not a big difference but a slight improvement.

Conclusion: If you focus on one spell type (ex: domination mesmer, fire nuker, lightning spiker, secondary attributes like fast casting and energy storage is not as important) then Superior rune is still the best way to go. If you divide your skills amongst two skills you equally value, then two majors will probably be better. If you are not aiming to get 15 or 16 on some attribute (such as with a tanking warrior using tactics and strength), then major runes will almost always be better.

strcpy · Jun 03, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

My farmer (w/mo) switched to two majors. He is specced in four things (axe, tactics, strength, healing) and it gave me 5 more health.

Another way to look at it is that a major+major+major is one fort mod above a sup+minor+minor. That's an easily switchable mod too.

Of course, as was pointed out, these do not stack. However this allows *three* skills to cross into the 12 attribute points range. I have not really sit and thought about it much - I'm pretty happy with my current builds and am still dorking with factions, but I'm willing to bet that there is some build out there that this would really help on.

edit: I would reiterate what others have said before someone points it out too me - of course majors are worthless if you need a 16, probably not worth so much if you need a 15 also.

Mandy Memory · Jun 03, 2006, 06:33 AM // 06:33

This isnt much of a buff...if you need the attributes, you were always going to bring the runes. Now you just get more health doing it.

xuemin · Jun 03, 2006, 10:46 AM // 10:46

update has only affected my ranger in terms of rune usage; before she would have 1 sup, 2 majors and health wasn't a problem then either because of the 30hp mod on bows and the fact that she's a ranged attacker. now, i'm able to add another sup rune and health is only 10 different from before (so she now has 2 sup, 1 major).

my monk hasn't changed, she still uses 2 sup runes and neither has my ele who uses 1 sup, 1 major. i'm not keen at using the 2 sup combo on my ele because i hate having to move in the middle of casting a long spell that causes exhaustion >.>

J snukka · Jun 03, 2006, 11:40 AM // 11:40

i actually did change. I have superior, 1 major, 1 minor- the old was sup, min, min.

I would try superior, major, major now though with a 30 hp mod weapon.

Divinus Stella · Jun 03, 2006, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Well, for my monk im considering just maj healing so i get the extra HP, but for most other characters i think il stick with sup runes, perhpas for the classic mesmer signet build i could take maj dom/maj insp.

Psykewne · Jun 03, 2006, 12:42 PM // 12:42

for pvp: now the difference between superior and major make superior redundant imo. 15 weapon mastery is fine and its not worth 40 health to go to 16, not with the popularity of spikes and damage dumps. I alreayd stuck to minors on soft characters, now I'll be using majors on hard targets too (warrior, ranger, assassin). Also I play mainly gvg which also benefits better from high health as playing long periods with dp can be common.

for pve: unless you're doing a specific farming build you can run what the hell you like in pve, I prefer no superiors again as it gives hench monks more time to react and more leeway when they decide to suck. Also it gives some allowance for bad pickup monks etc...

Honestly majors just made it so you dont feel stupid for taking a major when the superior only cost you 25 more health. Now the leep from 35 to 75 is something to consider, and i consider taking it foolish apart from very specific builds.

JR · Jun 03, 2006, 02:11 PM // 14:11

It depends entirely on the skills you are using, and their attribute level breakpoints.

yesitsrob · Jun 03, 2006, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Divine favor add more of an increase in healing that pumping healing attribute. Most healing spells increase by 2 healing between break points. Spreading 2 majors over healing and divine will give you more healing while having to spend less attribute points. With a 2 major set up you can have 2/2/2. 2 major runes, head peice and minor rune. I'd rather go that route instead of 3/2 or 4/1

Hit the break points then pump the attribute points you saved into your secondary attributes for more energy management. I don't think a 10 heal difference is going make that much effect but that 2-3 extra energy will.

I really think this depends on your monk build - if it has heal party in it, I think the extra in healing would be better than the extra in divine favor.

On a booner, I'd again pump my divine favor high as possible as opposed to throwing something extra into prot... or just use minors as I often do when I monk... people prefer different spreads though... I'm a 14/16 - 9 - 10 person.

On a warrior, for me, it seems like superior would be the way to go... Being primarily a damage dealer I want my weapon stat to be as high as possible... Strenght isn't normally that useful, sure I could get a small extra bit out of a heal signet but it doesn't justify losing 1 in my weapon attribute for the same health penalty in my opinion.

It really does depend on your build though... I'm yet to come across a scenario yet where I'd opt for 2 majors, that said, the update has only just happened and I've done barely anything except monk and warrioring so... could happen

twicky_kid · Jun 03, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

On a booner, I'd again pump my divine favor high as possible as opposed to throwing something extra into prot... or just use minors as I often do when I monk... people prefer different spreads though... I'm a 14/16 - 9 - 10 person.

I have changed my booner to major divine and prot. This allows me 14 divine, 9 prot, and 12 inspiration. Before I was running 15/10/9. I now have 6 more energy every 20-25 seconds than I did before. I lost a big 8 per heal. That is miniscule when I can cast an extra spell therefore giving me more healing.

Energy gain over healing power will win the day every time.

Da Cebuano · Jun 03, 2006, 05:52 PM // 17:52

The major runes only really affect pve only warriors and sins and pvp casters. Casters get the most out of thier primary attribute, so having +1 more of their primary attibute(normally associated w/ a minor rune) while suffering only -70 hp for having 2 majors is a huge stratigical advantage. A boon prot for example, having a major divine favor and major protect is much as an advantage over doing super div/prot and a minor, you either go the extreme of the pendulum or go balanced.

Pve warriors can now use thier sentinels armor w/o having to sac their weapon atts for a super str.

I think the update is fine, however, I think super runes should've been lowered to -70hp to match the cost of 2 majors, hey, 5hp can only do so much eh

Although honestly, i wish anet made better use of their time w/ updates, I still yet to see increase storage and better storage item interface(removal of only select # of items at a time or deposit select # at a time).

Evilsod · Jun 03, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Most rangers use expertise, mark, and wilderness. Most of the time they are kept pretty even with expertise around 13-14. With the major set up you can do a 2/2/2 or a 3/2/1 attribute points spread. That will allow you reduce the mark and wilderness by 1 giving you more attribute points to spread into other attributes. After you add 1 more point into expertise to bring it to the 13-14 lvl you need you will have more points compared to the 4/1 sup combo. That means more points for your 2nd class. Usually being mesmer for more energy.

I think you need to check your Expertise tables. Most rangers either run 13 or 9 Expertise purely for the energy break points. If your willing to dump enough points into Expertise to get it upto 13, you really shouldn't be running a 3rd attribute. In that situation you should be going pure Marks/Exp and sod the WS. And when it comes to using 9 Expertise, you can easily get the rest of your stats to 12 WS and high Marks.
With a mesmer its different, throwing an extra 1 point into Inspiration can make a difference, in comparison to using 15 Domination since the break point for all the E-denial skills is at 14, only boosting things like Mind Wrack. Also every other profession gets a boost from there Primary Attribute whatever the level is, unlike Expertise where it has break points (ignoring 25E skills) and Fast Casting where the difference of 1 is just tiny for pretty much everything beyond 8s cast times. E-Storage has its limits there too, extra damage from the Sup Fire, or 2 majors meaning slightly less and 3 more energy? I'd go for the Sup+eye and a minor anyday.

Rob, i said almost everything you just said on the last page

Heal Party, Boon prots/Prots, the lot.
9 Prot really is too low, Its almost worthless bringing Guardian if your dropping it that far, without a bonder Reversal of Fortune wont be much use for the high damage Ele spells either. The point is to not only heal them its to actually protect them too. Gaining 4 energy more from Mantra of Recall each time means absolutely nothing if you need to cast more often to cover for the lack of protection your giving or if you have plenty of energy already.

twicky_kid · Jun 03, 2006, 09:35 PM // 21:35

You honestly think there is a big difference between 9 and 11 prot? That's only 4% more block from guardian (worthless). Only about 8 more heal from RoF assuming they hit the max (again worthless). The only time running high prot is worth it is to increase the duration of prot spirit and that is only 1 sec/lvl. Prot spirit is there for those high dmg ele spells not RoF. The reason prot is the choice for booners is because it will prevent dmg, 100+ heal with every spell, and 1/4 to 3/4 casting on most spells. Mainly the cast times is the main drive behind the booner. Otherwise a boon healer would work just as well (more healing power than prot).

MoR is not the only inspiration skill on my bar. Most booners pack inspire hex/drain enchant MoR. Adding 3 energy gain to each one of those will make a big difference.

Cripple shot rangers run 13 expertise to hit the breakpoint for 15e. 14 is the breakpoint for 10e. Just about every ranger is going to run wilderness, mark, expertise, and dump the rest into their 2nd class. In each case I rarely see expertise below 13. I know my breakpoints very well and design builds.

For PvE it doesn't matter you can take anything and still win.

NinjaKai · Jun 03, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

I'd say if your looking to enhance multiple attributes while keeping health reasonably high. Then go with two major runes.

Count to Potato · Jun 03, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Major and one superior, Sup Vigor, And then atifact, shield +30 health

MentalMidgit · Jun 03, 2006, 11:30 PM // 23:30

hmm on my assassin i use 3 majors..

does that mean im bad???

Evilsod · Jun 03, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Meh, i was talking about PvE. I guess you meant PvP. My booner in PvE i use 14 prot and 12/14 divine (purely because i havent bothered getting a +1 scalp yet). And when it comes to Reversal of Fortune it can be a much more powerful heal than a Boonhealer could give using 5 + 2 energy (assuming they weren't using WoH since they'd need energy). The main word there been 'can'. If a warrior hits it and does 70 damage, not only have they healed the character for 70, you 'effectively' healed them 140 by both blocking the damage and converting it. And that without bother with boon/divine favour obviously. But sadly with only 3 regen you can't really spam Prot Spirit everytime it may be needed. Course you can protect squishies from things like Shadow Rangers and Abyssals, but if you need to cast 3 of them, your really pushing yourself on energy there.

And yes i take Inspired Hex along too, but isn't the boost from 10 Insp to 12 Insp only increasing it from 11 to 12 energy gain? In PvE it hardly matters, but i guess PvP it will eventually over the course of a long long fight.

Guess theres no point discussing it anymore though as PvE and PvP obviously require different approaches.

As for Rangers, i was thinking more in terms of 5 energy skills hitting the breakpoint at 13 expertise. When i go for a Barrage/Pet build i use 14 Marks, 13 Exp to hit 2 cost for Barrage and the rest dumped into Smiting for JI (for FoW that is, tombs it'd be useless). I guess theres been a lot of misunderstandings

jimmy_logic · Jun 04, 2006, 12:13 AM // 00:13

On my ranger I run 2 Majors/2 Minors. Expertise is +2(+1) Marks +2 WS +1 BM +1

It allows my expertise to breakpoint at 13 marks to stay at 12 ws at 12 and BM 2.

This setup has proven more effective than the Sup/Minor one. Thanks to twicky kid for pointing out what he meant lol must of been dreaming the other day.

TheLordOfBlah · Jun 04, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

I'm gonna use some war majors. But the traders already out of a lot of em 0_O

jimmy_logic · Jun 04, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Switched to 3 majors.... I am liking it better hehehe... all breakpoints acheived and more damage output!!!